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Technical information for player models

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SavageX

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Post Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:17 pm

Technical information for player models

Hi,

this is technical information and discussion mainly intended for modellers that are interested in helping out with remodelling player models for future Nexuiz releases. I'm getting response from several artists showing interest and I hope we can assemble a small team of modellers to have a sane workload for each modeller and some variety style wise.

First of all: Thanks alot for your interest!

I have been asked to provide some technical information and some artistical (style) guidance, Well, I'll try. Feel free to ask for more information if you miss something.

We aim for a polycount of about 1200 (is this realistic?) - with a high poly version being modelled to generate normalmaps. Basically whatever Doom 3 and Quake 4 are doing.

We have a number of formats to choose from, but our current favorite is perhaps .dpm (a custom model format, skeletal animation, keyframe animation). Currently we're using the .zym model format (another custom model format, skeletal animation, animation loops) which has proven to be hard to control animation with (e.g. sync weapon firing animation with actual emission of bullets).

We can use Quake3's model format, too - but it's not based on skeletal animation and therefore is quite heavy on memory - it has better tool support, though. Our custom model formats have tools to generate models from Half Life format .smd files - I can only hope Blender can export to .smd. Judging from the "blockbuster" status of Half Life and Half Life 2 I assume there must be .smd export scripts somewhere.

I think we'll segment the models into head, torso and legs and tag them together - this way we can implement looking up and down and have credible strafing. This would enable us to glue different heads onto the same torso etc. (small bonus). We may even opt for having the same animation sequences (name, length) as Quake3 to give experienced modellers an easier start (we need a similiar set of animations anyway).

As for the style: Every artist is free to model what he likes. It may be nice to have remakes of some of the better current models, though. I think we should still opt for a sci-fi style similiar to what we already see - so no knights or witches (cyborg witches and knights may look cool, though ;-) )

We aim for variety and don't want to kill creativity - so you can create whatever you can imagine to look good in-game.

I think it would be wise to have a reference set of animations so modellers not feeling up to the task of creating animations themselves can create working models, too (or can use them as a starting point). We can't use animations from other titles as e.g. Quake 3, even if we shall opt for using the same set of animation sequences. Every modeller is invited to create animations for their creatures if he feels this improves things - this shouldn't be a requirement, though.

If you feel you'd like to model some monster creatures: Feel free to do so - it'd be cool to have (optional) monsters in Nexuiz (similiar to UT2004's Invastion game mode). Let your creativity flow :)

We can use new item models, map opjects (fancy teleporters, jumppads, trees, rocks, ...) too...
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motorsep

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Post Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:14 pm

Just letting you know that I am in and I have registred here :)
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MrPotbut

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Post Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:48 pm

Hey everyone. Just thought I would post a message stating that I am very interested in making some prop and character models for Nexuiz.

Is there and pre-production drawings of the current characters?

Is there and pre-production drawings of new characters?

Is it 1600 poly total for all parts of the character?

I have not yet tried the game as I am at work for a few more hours. Hopefully I can give it a try later tonight. I may have more questions then.

NG
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mehere101

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Post Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:53 pm

OK, just my two cents, but SMD exports from blender are not the best supported exporters. Perhaps a different middle format should be chosen.
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SavageX

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Post Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:06 pm

Well, as for concept art: Seems there is basically none. The current models were an one-man effort done a long time ago... I'll try to contact Vermeulen if he has something for us.

Basically I think the current models can act sorta act as "concept art". IMO the style is okay (wild mix of aliens, mutants (carni, anyone?), humans and robots - pretty unique) - just the execution is lacking.

So you can either remodel things if you like or do something completely new that seems to fit.

As for the .smd issues... I guess there may be .3ds to .smd converters? I hope there's something good and free...

Nvidia's mesh reduction and normal generation tool Melody ( http://developer.nvidia.com/object/melody_faq.html ) reads .3ds so I guess it may be wise to use .blender during modelling and .3ds for conversion steps.

Anybody having more in-detail experience? I'm not a modelling expert of any sort...

Edit:

If things don't work out as expected with our custom model formats we can just as well use MD3... if we're using Quake 3's segmention of models and animations we can just as well use their format as well ;)
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Lamoot

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Post Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:14 pm

I'm testing nvidia's Melody tool for creating normal maps and I've ran into a problem. One one side the can has proper normal texture while on the other side the texture is somehow corrupted. Is anyone experienced enough with normal maps & co. to have any idea what could be causing this problem.

Image
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SavageX

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Post Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:29 pm

Oh, another thing about the model format.

We can use Unreal's .psk format, too. There's an MD5 export plugin for Blender. MD5 can be converted to .psk.

Thanks go to motorsep for pointing that out.


@Lamoot: Argh, that's freaky. If this can't be solved I'll contact NVidia - they're usually totally into supporting their tools.

Edit: Well, the can to the left side (the original model) has the normals in model space... the reduced mesh seems to have tangent space normalmaps (that's the correct sort of normalmaps we can use). Perhaps some clash of some sort?
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Wereaser

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Post Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:45 pm

Some useful stuff.

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SavageX

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Post Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:11 pm

Ah, cool, thanks :)

Edit: Perhaps http://www2.ati.com/developer/NormalMapper-3_2_2.zip is of use if Melody doesn't work too well? Anyway, open solutions (preferrably for Blender) would be clearly nicer.
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motorsep

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Post Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:28 pm

.md5 is not supported by DP engine. However there is md5 to UT2k4 psk/psa converter made by Riot (have to find link though) and DP engine supports psk/psa format. That can be good workaround and we can replace .dpm with psk/psa. So there would be no need to use md3.
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leileilol

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Post Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:16 am

problem is, nexuiz uses .zym which has a different way of animating models than what .psk and .dpm do because every frame number is a complete sequence itself.
field hockey
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KadaverJack

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Post Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:31 am

CheapAlert wrote:problem is, nexuiz uses .zym which has a different way of animating models than what .psk and .dpm do because every frame number is a complete sequence itself.

That's not a problem, since we want to get rid a zym anyway ;)
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letmedoo

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Post Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:43 am

New there!

Hello, I'm a newbee there!
I'd like to model 4 that game, and I'll do it!
I have a lot of things to learn : that's great!
See you soon!
if you let a rope long enough to your enemy, he probably will hang himself up!
Sun-tzu
500 before JC
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SavageX

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Post Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:19 pm

I found some information about how to do Quake III player models (segmentation, animation names and lengths etc.). Notice that we'll do normalmapping and most likely use a skeletal animation for the different parts to save memory space. I think that document gives a nice overview, though.

http://www.workspace-unlimited.org/beel ... Player.pdf

Edit: That document describes the process in Maya but I'm sure similiar things apply to Blender as well.
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leileilol

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Post Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:33 pm

segmenting is ugly

we're better off having to bother lordhavoc to add bone controller support via qc
field hockey
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SavageX

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Post Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:02 pm

btw, here is the current model source (slightly outdated, but you get the idea - still the same animations and meshes) so you can get an idea how a .smd centric workflow is working with the conversion tools.

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfile ... _id=192474
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ihsan

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Post Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:48 pm

motorsep wrote:.md5 is not supported by DP engine. However there is md5 to UT2k4 psk/psa converter made by Riot (have to find link though) and DP engine supports psk/psa format. That can be good workaround and we can replace .dpm with psk/psa. So there would be no need to use md3.


I endorse this product or service :D

zym has to be replaced by a better supported format, at least until a proper set of tools are available (blender smd exports choke on zmodel).

From an ARTIST's point of view: The interest is there, the tools aren't. I'll put it in Unreal.
From an CODER's point of view: Just install a SMD exporter, configure separate tool via a TEXTFILE and execute via COMMAND LINE. How could you get easier than that? Lazy artist.
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nemyax

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Post Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:51 am

I'd like to clear up a few questions:
  • How many joints must the skeleton include?
  • Do models need to be segmented? Does it even matter?
  • Is there a limit on how many joints a vertex can be weighted to?
  • Does the weight of a vertex have to be 100%?
  • What kinds of animation sequences are required?
  • How many frames long must the run cycle, walk cycle etc. be?
  • Are you sure 1200 triangles is enough? The current models are heavier than that, and Doom 3's characters are between 2000 and 6000.
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SavageX

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Post Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:14 pm

nemyax wrote:I'd like to clear up a few questions:
  • How many joints must the skeleton include?
  • Do models need to be segmented? Does it even matter?
  • Is there a limit on how many joints a vertex can be weighted to?
  • Does the weight of a vertex have to be 100%?
  • What kinds of animation sequences are required?
  • How many frames long must the run cycle, walk cycle etc. be?
  • Are you sure 1200 triangles is enough? The current models are heavier than that, and Doom 3's characters are between 2000 and 6000.


Uh, good questions:

Overall the skeleton should have about as many bones as the current one:

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfile ... _id=192474

I can't answer the weighting questions atm... I'll ask LordHavoc, he'll know.

All animation sequences Quake 3 had should be present (We'll be using basically the same animation system and the model-making process for Quake 3 is pretty well documented). We'll segment the models just like Quake 3 did (head, torso, legs) to enable looking up/down and sideways strafing. This has the advantage that every part can play different animations, too.

See http://www.workspace-unlimited.org/beel ... Player.pdf for a list of animations.

1200 polies indeed may be too slim. If possible we'd like to reduce the poly count compared to our current models to have faster shadow computations and overall smoother framerate. I guess > 2000 polies would be okay as well - depending how much detail of the high poly version can be cramped into the normalmaps.

The overall idea is to model very high poly, then use mesh reduction and code the difference into the normalmap.
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puffie

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Post Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:48 am

Hiya!

I have done some professional work in the past for game studios via Turbosquid...

I have very good knowledge on how to use QERadient, Unreal ED, and HAMMER for HL2...

I own Zbrush 2, and can create the monsters you need.

I like to make static things as well, for my environments and maps.... this is what i am best at.

One thing I might ask is that you guys consider using the open collada format for your models and static meshes.

Collada can be imported/exported from Blender with ease. the MD2, and MD3 and MD5 exporters all really suck... I would have to install my old copy of milkshape.


here is some nice renderings I have done in the past:
http://s91842597.onlinehome.us/NEXTGEN/neptune.html
http://s91842597.onlinehome.us/NEXTGEN/Bigguy2.html
http://s91842597.onlinehome.us/NEXTGEN/ ... Final.html
http://s91842597.onlinehome.us/NEXTGEN/doctor1.html

sorry about my broken index page... I have not done casual artwork in quite some time :)
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ihsan

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Post Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:00 pm

puffie wrote:Hiya!

I have done some professional work in the past for game studios via Turbosquid...

I have very good knowledge on how to use QERadient, Unreal ED, and HAMMER for HL2...

I own Zbrush 2, and can create the monsters you need.

I like to make static things as well, for my environments and maps.... this is what i am best at.

One thing I might ask is that you guys consider using the open collada format for your models and static meshes.

Collada can be imported/exported from Blender with ease. the MD2, and MD3 and MD5 exporters all really suck... I would have to install my old copy of milkshape.


here is some nice renderings I have done in the past:
http://s91842597.onlinehome.us/NEXTGEN/neptune.html
http://s91842597.onlinehome.us/NEXTGEN/Bigguy2.html
http://s91842597.onlinehome.us/NEXTGEN/ ... Final.html
http://s91842597.onlinehome.us/NEXTGEN/doctor1.html

sorry about my broken index page... I have not done casual artwork in quite some time :)


Those are some great high poly(?) models. Justr had to say that :D
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leileilol

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Post Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:56 pm

It's up to LordHavoc to add new model formats however (which is highly unlikely imo)
field hockey
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Genegineer

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Post Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:57 pm

New to making models for this game, or any game for that matter. Got the files ffom sourceforge and took a quick look at them. Are all the animations in there or are there more? How do the zmodel and compile-zym exe's work into the process? I guess I'm supposed to get my models and skeletons into .smd format and then use compile-zym, but I'd rather get it correct. Lastly (for now), are alpha textures supported? Thanks!

BTW: Found a good tutorial at http://www.planetfortress.com/tf2models/tuto.htm








Using: 3ds max 4, paint shop pro 8, and milkshape - seems it all thats needed.
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SavageX

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Post Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:07 pm

Hello and welcome!

Well, currently we're using the .zym model format generated by a small program called "zmodel". This program takes a .smd file with the mesh, several .smd files for animations (each file is an skeletal animation) and a configuration file telling what .smd files to use for what animation at what playing speed etc. etc.

The model source comes with those .smd and config files and a binary of zmodel.

However, we're considering switching to a less strange format - e.g. something resembling Q3.
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Genegineer

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Post Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:27 pm

Zmodel

Thanks for the info! I'll give the zmodel prog a try until the other format is made available. I found a couple models floating around that are ready for conversion, gonna try to get one in to see how it looks before I do my own stuff. Has anyone else suggested this?
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ai

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Post Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:45 pm

Deleted post, found what I was looking for. Though, where can I find zmodel, wanna check it out?
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SavageX

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Post Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:20 am

You can get the model source of our player models at

http://svn.icculus.org/nexuiz/modelsour ... 5&view=log

This ZIP contains a Windows executable of zmodel.

The source code of zmodel is available at

http://cvs.icculus.org/cvs/twilight/zmodel/
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ai

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Post Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:18 am

That's zmodel? I had that for some time on my computer now, guess I had something else in mind :P
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Genegineer

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Post Fri Feb 09, 2007 7:13 pm

Has this topic died?? Looking at most of the old models, they seem to come in at 2600 polys, 1800 - 2000 should help out a lot. 1500 is very low, but not impossible. It will make for some chunky looking chars tho, imho.
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vertexoteric

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Post Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:59 pm

1500 polys is pretty low, but not necessarily chunky. i've been reading paul steed's book on modelling and in it he teaches character modelling by building a 1500 poly character. the final result looked pretty good and a lot smoother than some nexuiz characters with twice that number of polygons.
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